Documentation storm on user's list

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Documentation storm on user's list

Viktor Szakáts
To Pete,

[ Sorry to reply here, but I'm readonly user of users-list. ]

> yeah, sure! "very well" and "very idealistic"..
> (but please keep in mind that idealism is the container of fanaticism
> -and of any obnoxious "-ism" in general. we  don't need them any more.)
> "asking" is not only a right, is the "creative trigger" for everything
> being made by human race; and please don't confuse "asking" with
> "demanding" nor "user" with "consumer". Into the subject now, maybe it's
> difficult to understand and accept it but, "documenting" is more
> valuable than "coding" itself. IMHO, documentation is (or must be) on
> upper top, in the scale of open source priorities, since documents, or
> better the lack of documents, is straightly against to the spirit of
> open source initiative, because if open source, due to lack of
> documents, is not easily understandable/self-learn-able, becomes
> unusable to wider programmer-cycles and degenerates to a cryptic tool in
> hands of an illuminated elite, less or not at all, different than closed
> software. And this is a real problem with wider consequences than you
> can imagine. Of course nobody can demand from developers to write
> manuals. All that one could ask from them is to be, their coding, more
> documentation friendly, ensuring this way that their valuable and  very
> respectable labor and creation won't go in vain..

Strange and insulting thoughts towards anyone who have
dedicated huge amount (many years) of (maybe even full
time) to take this project where it is now. Maybe
you could elaborate on what you mean by "documentation
friendly code"...

If coding means nothing to you, pls delete all the
Harbour sources and try to use it after...

If documentation is so important, why wasn't there
even a single person (f.e. you?) who would take the pain
and write even a small snippet of it? By now if every user
who benefitted from this free product named Harbour,
would have done so, we'd probably have a full documentation.
All information is right there in the source, mailing
list and ChangeLog, open and accessible to everyone,
and all educated questions (unlike the one that started
off this thread) used to be answered on our forums,
and yes it sometimes triggers ideas as you say, but the
emphasis is on "educated".

Remember you got something for free, so before demanding
anything, asking for more or complaining like children,
think about what _you_ can do to change the situation.

Idealism is thinking that you get can everything from
thin air, without thinking, learning, contributing
and/or paying for it.

In reality potential users have three choices for _all_
open source software:

- don't use it
- accept what's offered
- contribute (that's also the best form to say "thank you")

Viktor

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RE: Documentation storm on user's list

Horodyski Marek (PZUZ)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Viktor Szakáts [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 12:03 PM
> To: Harbour Project Main Developer List.
> Subject: [Harbour] Documentation storm on user's list
>
> To Pete,
>
[...]
>
> Strange and insulting thoughts towards anyone who have
> dedicated huge amount (many years) of (maybe even full
> time) to take this project where it is now.

Viktor,
do not write like that. You know that Harbour is beautiful, beautiful, and once again fast :)

Best regards,
Marek Horodyski

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Re: Documentation storm on user's list

Angel Pais
El 27/05/2010 11:16, Horodyski Marek (PZUZ) escribió:

>
> Viktor,
> ...  Harbour is beautiful, beautiful, and once again fast :)
>
> Best regards,
> Marek Horodyski
>

Amen !!!!

Some hummor (really?) to ease the day ;)

http://www.kevinwilliampang.com/2008/08/28/top-10-things-that-annoy-programmers/

Enjoy
Angel

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Re: Documentation storm on user's list

Pritpal Bedi
Angel Pais wrote
Enjoyed.

Really refreshing and seemed expressing me.

     enjoy hbIDEing...
        Pritpal Bedi
http://hbide.vouch.info/
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Re: Documentation storm on user's list

Viktor Szakáts
In reply to this post by Angel Pais
> El 27/05/2010 11:16, Horodyski Marek (PZUZ) escribió:
>
>>
>> Viktor,
>> ...  Harbour is beautiful, beautiful, and once again fast :)
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Marek Horodyski
>>
>
> Amen !!!!

Well, what stays true from this whole conversation
is we are truly missing documentation. It's also true
that bugging (or insulting) me or other core developers
to make it isn't a working solution, however strong
the emphasis is or however often it is done.

That's still leaves us with the question:

How will Harbour get a documentation?

If anyone has any ideas, pls tell it. I'm ready to
hand off my leader role for someone who is able to
show us the solution and seems able and willing to
lead the project to actual results here.

BTW

Now that we have practically complete compatibility
with xhb, one (indeed idealistic) and also utopistic
solution could be to finally remerge the effort of
xhb and Harbour, where xhb would bring the docs,
and we'd bring the code. This way both parties would
bring its healthy part to the "marriage". xhb leaders
would gain a strong and living codebase for their
payware products, all users would gain good documentation,
and as a "byproduct" the two separate communities
would be merged, which is probably better to keep
[x]Harbour alive as a language, and also for users
seeking to have a compatible Harbour base, and the
option for users to get paid support without having
to chose between "worlds" (this means more potential
market for xhb). "culture clash" could be one potential
problem, but it's not a one-way ticket, since the
sources stay open, so it's easy to back off in case
of some fatal "issue" along the way.

It's not a real argument, but looking around the
FOSS language landscape, I can't see any successful
project which could "afford" such splitting of the
community and the luxury of having two of everything.

So, such merge would IMO be a net win for all parties.

If someone has an opinion on this, particularly
xhb team leaders and our core developers and devoted
brains around this list, please don't hesitate to
express it.

> Some hummor (really?) to ease the day ;)
>
> http://www.kevinwilliampang.com/2008/08/28/top-10-things-that-annoy-programmers/

Not joke, but it's a good one :)

Viktor

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Re: Documentation storm on user's list

pete_westg
In reply to this post by Viktor Szakáts
στις 27/05/2010 13:02, O/H Viktor Szakáts έγραψε:

> To Pete,
>
> [ Sorry to reply here, but I'm readonly user of users-list. ]
>
>
> Strange and insulting thoughts towards anyone who have
> dedicated huge amount (many years) of (maybe even full
> time) to take this project where it is now. Maybe
> you could elaborate on what you mean by "documentation
> friendly code"...
>
> If coding means nothing to you, pls delete all the
> Harbour sources and try to use it after...
>

Viktor,

[I finally managed to discover that my post in users-forum had been
replied here. so, here it is my humble yet belated answer]

are you sure you have understood my words? I 'm afraid you don't!
What I am not sure for, is the reason for this misunderstanding.
Perhaps, is it due to my bad English or what?
And how did you find "insulting" thoughts, there where it doesn't exist?
When I am saying documentation is more valuable than coding, in no way
mean that "coding is nothing".
It just means that without documentation, many parts of code is almost
unusable, for many people (users).

We all agree with you that if every individual harbour user would be
willing to write some (small) part of documentation, the Harbour manual
would perhaps be already here. But life has shown that it is not that
simple. Months ago we have had the very same discussion. many people had
then declared their interest to contribute, some of them had shown their
valuable ideas and had made specific proposals. Unfortunately after a
while the interest had faded out, and the only "real" remained/result
was an documenting extension into hbide, which supposedly would help to
write documentation. I have tried to use it. It didn't work (not in
operational meaning of the term). Beyond this, i 've had spent hours
digging into sources, trying to format some pieces of documentation. the
results were not significant. why? because writing documentation is
indeed difficult, actually is more difficult than somebody can imagine
and for sure more difficult than coding. that's why, i suppose, for
every thousands good coders correspond few -very few or even none- good
documenters.
Regarding your definition of idealism, i couldn't put it better.
"thinking, learning, contributing and/or paying" is the only realistic
approach.
Starting from the later, please don't have any doubt that I (and I
believe many other Harbour users) would be more than willing to _pay_
for a manual if anything did exist. Contributing is another crucial story.
Nobody's _demanding_ anything from developers. And how one could do
that? But asking for documentation should not considered as a demand. Is
a very normal and absolutely expected query for any newcomer to Harbour.
The "do it yourself" is a pushing away answer. What "insulting" do you
find in this paragraph?
By "documentation friendly code" i mean two simple and very well known
things.
a. Short introductory description on top of source code (in place of
this long and more or less useless copyright reminding replica )
b. in-line comments.
c. sample program.
[OK, they are three, but any combination of two will perfectly do the
job ;)]



P.S.: merging harbour-xhb? (wow! this question could be a real
philosophical dilemma). although this is a core-developers decision,
you better  don't have doubts that the great majority of the users, in
case they'd been asked for,  would loudly vote "No!"

---
Pete

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Re: Documentation storm on user's list

Viktor Szakáts
> [I finally managed to discover that my post in users-forum had been replied here. so, here it is my humble yet belated answer]
>
> are you sure you have understood my words? I 'm afraid you don't!
> What I am not sure for, is the reason for this misunderstanding. Perhaps, is it due to my bad English or what?
> And how did you find "insulting" thoughts, there where it doesn't exist? When I am saying documentation is more valuable than coding, in no way mean that "coding is nothing".

Yes, it read just that way. Maybe one day someone will
teach me how to write documentation instead, so something
valuable can be done at least. Maybe some day someone
will teach us how to create "documentation friendly code"
in my free time.

> It just means that without documentation, many parts of code is almost unusable, for many people (users).
>
> We all agree with you that if every individual harbour user would be willing to write some (small) part of documentation, the Harbour manual would perhaps be already here. But life has shown that it is not that simple. Months ago we have had the very same discussion. many people had then declared their interest to contribute, some of them had shown their valuable ideas and had made specific proposals. Unfortunately after a while the interest had faded out, and the only "real" remained/result was an documenting extension into hbide, which supposedly would help to write documentation. I have tried to use it. It didn't work (not in operational meaning of the term). Beyond this, i 've had spent hours digging into sources, trying to format some pieces of documentation. the results were not significant. why? because writing documentation is indeed difficult, actually is more difficult than somebody can imagine and for sure more difficult than coding. that's why, i suppose, for every thousands good coders correspond few -very few or even none- good documenters.

We didn't need HBIDE documentation extension, and we
still don't need it to create docs. Unfortunately all
our attempts to solve documentation quickly becomes
a "tool frenzy". Maybe when such pops up, you should
voice your opinion in time.

The only upside of last discussion is that we more or
less nailed out the final NFDOC documentation format,
but not enough that anyone would feel to pick it up and
continue (or tell something better).

> Regarding your definition of idealism, i couldn't put it better.
> "thinking, learning, contributing and/or paying" is the only realistic approach.
> Starting from the later, please don't have any doubt that I (and I believe many other Harbour users) would be more than willing to _pay_ for a manual if anything did exist. Contributing is another crucial story.

Unfortunately if users are willing to pay for what
doesn't exist, it won't help us the smallest bit.

Plus the existing xhb documentation is available
for money since years, yet nobody buys it. So what
am I missing? All I see is empty words.

> Nobody's _demanding_ anything from developers. And how one could do that? But asking for documentation should not considered as a demand. Is a very normal and absolutely expected query for any
>  newcomer to Harbour. The "do it yourself" is a pushing away answer. What "insulting" do you find in this paragraph?

Demanding and asking are two very different things,
and it's usually easy to tell apart after having some
time spent on public forums.

Demanding: Asking others to do something.
Asking: Asking a question in an interactive or productive
    fashion. Notice that the latter sometimes may even be
    considered as contribution.

Huge difference.

> By "documentation friendly code" i mean two simple and very well known things.
> a. Short introductory description on top of source code (in place of this long and more or less useless copyright reminding replica )
> b. in-line comments.
> c. sample program.
> [OK, they are three, but any combination of two will perfectly do the job ;)]

I find this largely offensive. Did you check the code
for comments? What exactly do you expect, hidden
full blown documentation inside the source? Sample
programs: all developers have done their fair share,
so pls don't continue bugging us with it.

But, the short and generic answer is: DO IT if you
miss it. All I see is you criticizing from the high ground
without even considering how much work is what you ask
for, and how much work has been done totally unnoticed
by you...

You seem to miss the ground rule of open source: everyone
does something to scratch an itch.

Some of us many times do much more than that, but pls
don't ask for more, more and more, just do it.

> P.S.: merging harbour-xhb? (wow! this question could be a real philosophical dilemma). although this is a core-developers decision, you better  don't have doubts that the great majority of the users, in case they'd been asked for,  would loudly vote "No!"

While your conclusion is valuable, perhaps it would
be even more valuable if you told what exactly are
your concerns. Just to help things flowing.

Viktor

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Re: Documentation storm on user's list

smu johnson
In reply to this post by pete_westg
Some thoughts,

On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 12:18 PM, pete_westg <[hidden email]> wrote:
are you sure you have understood my words? I 'm afraid you don't!
What I am not sure for, is the reason for this misunderstanding. Perhaps, is it due to my bad English or what?

-  Stating that Harbour's lack of documention is "straightly against to the spirit of open source initiative" can be considered offensive by many.  Who made you the spokesperson of the Open Source movement?  It could be interpreted that your statement means their years of work were done improperly.

-  Saying that "this is a real problem with wider consequences than you can imagine" is also a pretty offensive.  Are the Harbour developers incapable of determining what might happen if there is a lack of documentation in the near future?  I think they can.  And not only that, but hearing a vague statement like this is like hearing someone claiming that the world is going to end in 2012, in ways we can't possibly fathom.  It sounds like you are saying the Harbour project is doomed unless developers start complying with your documentation suggestions.

> All that one could ask from them is to be, their coding, more
> documentation friendly, ensuring this way that their valuable and very
> respectable labor and creation won't go in vain..

As Viktor said, others will have to volunteer to do it, if the original developers don't feel like doing it.  Or maybe they will do it once their work is relatively finalized?  Then they won't have to change documentation so much when simple things change, and focus more on development.  The ChangeLog keeps track of all this pretty nicely anyways.  (Sorry Viktor... you had to tell me 2 or 3 times about making it a habit to check this file!)

In other (good) news, I am working on compiling a very readable FAQ with pretty much everything covered that you could want in order to get something that compiled on Clipper to compile in Win32 for Harbour... as I had to figure it out all by myself, with the help of a few developers on the -dev list.  So, this might help as far as teaching users how to do some basic and intermediate things with Harbour that are very common.

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Re: Documentation storm on user's list

Horodyski Marek (PZUZ)
In reply to this post by pete_westg
> -----Original Message-----
> From: pete_westg [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 9:19 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: [Harbour] Re: Documentation storm on user's list

[...]

> When I am saying documentation is more valuable than coding, in no way
> mean that "coding is nothing".
> It just means that without documentation, many parts of code is almost
> unusable, for many people (users).

For me the most useful examples.
For now I miss examples how to bind query in OCILIB :)
Tomorrow I would like two parallel inquiries in OCILIB (there is no examples, but there should not be a problem in MT).
There is also an example of a LIBCAIRO to place their pictures.

Examples (tests) in this moment of development are more useful than the documentation.
The project is developing very quickly, and documentation would be quickly outdated.
And our ability to (at least mine) to adapt to what is already in the examples is delayed by about two years (eg in managing HTTP).
I am very happy with the examples, the more that I do not know English, and my contact with him is limited only to this group.
I could not understand the documentation, examples much faster.

Regards,
Marek Horodyski


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Re: Documentation storm on user's list

pete_westg
In reply to this post by smu johnson
στις 27/05/2010 23:33, O/H smu johnson έγραψε:

> Some thoughts,
>
> On Thu, May 27, 2010 at 12:18 PM, pete_westg
> <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>
> wrote:
>
>     are you sure you have understood my words? I 'm afraid you don't!
>     What I am not sure for, is the reason for this misunderstanding.
>     Perhaps, is it due to my bad English or what?
>
>
> -  Stating that Harbour's lack of documention is "straightly against to
> the spirit of open source initiative" can be considered offensive by
> many.  Who made you the spokesperson of the Open Source movement?  It
> could be interpreted that your statement means their years of work were
> done improperly.


Please don't put  words in my mouth that i never said. Or please show me
even one instance of the word "Harbour" into my first post to which you
are referring. There is not one! You have just "tailored" a phrase, by
mixing your assumptions with cut-n-past parts of my lines, to base your
claim that this (the tailored) statement "can be considered offensive by
many".
I wonder what is the purpose of this conversation. Is it to accuse me,
for my comments being "offensive", "strange", "insulting", "bugging" or
whatever?  I can't say to someone "do or don't feel offended".  All I
can do is to explain my point, and wish that through understanding, the
reasons that make someone to feel offended would vanish. So, i must make
it clear, that when i wrote <<documentation is (or must be) on upper
top, in the scale of open source priorities, since documents, or better
the lack of documents, is straightly against to the spirit of open
source initiative>> (this is my unaltered phrase)  i was not referring
specifically to Harbour but rather i was expressing a general point,
regarding the whole opensource case. and I believe, you don't need to be
a spokesperson of the OS movement to speak up your thoughts about it.
I have a sentiment that the problem in present days is not just the open
source code. you don't need to be a specialist to see it. Trillions
lines of very good code have been written and quadrillions will be
written in the close future. It is really amazing and all the respect
belongs to the great developers. On the other hand we can't ignore the
fact that we already have an infinite ocean of source code inside which
we (the community/society) could sink or we could sail. I vote to sail!
and the ship to sail and not sink, you guess it, is the documents.
To put it an other way, the crucial subject today, is not any  more the
open source code. It is (and always was) the open knowledge.
And knowledge without documentations is simply impossible. Documentation
is the vehicle of knowledge. documenting is to securing the ability to
be able to use the brilliant "machines" that brilliant developers-brains
have created.
Now, Viktor will come and accuse me: "Empty words, again."
Yes, I see it. I see the emptiness in the absence of manual. I see the
emptiness in my inability to be useful in the subject.
And the question is still here, as you Viktor, say. Why we have no
documentation?
Why we have such a brilliant and huge amount of excellent code, like
Harbour has become thanks to your (and all of developers) tremendous
efforts and not an analogous documentation? We said, it is difficult to
create documentation. but if we think it better, difficulty is not the
main reason. The main reason is that nobody wants documentation so much,
nobody is "burned" to create it. and the deeper cause of this, is the
lack of belief to the great value of a documentation, is the lack of
belief to the vital significance of a manual, it is because we are much
eager for source code and we are not interested for documentation,
perhaps because is not so glorious to write documents compared to
code-writing. obviously we lack a "documenting culture"( similar to
coding culture), and for this to happen, perhaps we need empty words,
even to just have something to filling up, even to just have something
to keep the spark alive. as i see it there two directions. to get rid
off of this documentation blah-blah, which means that we'll immediately
stop bugging you the developers, or to keep searching ways how the goal
of documentation will become true. Honestly, Viktor, i 'm not interest
to bugging you, (i don't know what exactly the "bugging" is, or means,
but if it is related to the activity of a bug, then i think it's my time
to start feeling offended. However, feeling offended or not, doesn't
cure my real displeasure to feel almost guilty because i can't find a
practical way to effectively contribute documentation.

___________________________________________________________________
P.S. Strangely enough, i see no reaction to the challenging idea of
harbour-xhb merging. Does the harbour community think it was a joke or
this deafening silence express their glacial indifference about the
future of Harbour?

---
Pete

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Re: Documentation storm on user's list

Viktor Szakáts
> To put it an other way, the crucial subject today, is not any  more the open source code. It is (and always was) the open knowledge.

Nobody ever promised that knowledge or mastery will automatically
fly into the users' brains, just by having access to the information,
be it open source, blueprints, scientific papers or the wikipedia.

Pls remember that even such _quite well documented_, _fully open_
and long time known systems as Linux, have several companies
_earning_ large sums of money by supporting them (f.e. Red Hat),
selling workforce who do actually understand the system and
_translates_ that to knowledge for the benefit of customers/users,
even in the form of documentation.

All of these require an _effort_. You can do this effort yourself,
or you can ask other to do that. In latter case, you either pay
for it or motivate them by other means. Second option seems more
complicated with documentation (than with code) as it is huge work
and the one who does it doesn't benefit from it in too many ways.

Looks like it's not enough to give something for free to expect
any sort of return for it.

> Why we have such a brilliant and huge amount of excellent code, like Harbour has become thanks to your (and all of developers) tremendous efforts and not an analogous documentation?

See above.

> We said, it is difficult to create documentation. but if we think it better, difficulty is not the main reason. The main reason is that nobody wants documentation so much, nobody is "burned" to create it. and the deeper cause of this, is the lack of belief to the great value of a documentation, is the lack of belief to the vital significance of a manual, it is because we are much eager for

I think nobody ever questioned that documentation and samples
are nice and useful, or even crucial. That was never a question.

> Viktor, i 'm not interest to bugging you, (i don't know what exactly the "bugging" is, or means, but if it is related to the activity of a bug, then i think it's my time to start feeling offended. However, feeling offended or not, doesn't cure my real displeasure to feel almost guilty because i can't find a practical way to effectively contribute documentation.

Bugging is: "write documentation friendly code", "create samples",
"create good comments"

Did you notice I created INSTALL, with 330 updates in the last
15 months? Did you notice Przemek creating lots of e-mails which
are better than most written documentation, or not to mention
xhb-diff.txt, which is almost like an academic paper? Or I could
mention docs created by Pritpal for HBIDE. Can you imagine how
much time does it take to create these thing? If you don't, just
keep on asking for more, or telling what you tell, you risk that
some will find it as "bugging".

Overall, I see no lack in "lead by example" here... The problem
is there is nobody to follow.

Demanding more without appreciating work already done is
probably the surest motivation killer [ especially in open source,
where appreciation is the most important (or only) motivation factor ].

> ___________________________________________________________________
> P.S. Strangely enough, i see no reaction to the challenging idea of harbour-xhb merging. Does the harbour community think it was a joke or this deafening silence express their glacial indifference about the future of Harbour?

It wasn't a joke.

Viktor

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Re: Documentation storm on user's list

pete_westg
στις 28/05/2010 15:23, O/H Viktor Szakáts έγραψε:

>
> Pls remember that even such _quite well documented_, _fully open_
> and long time known systems as Linux, have several companies
> _earning_ large sums of money by supporting them (f.e. Red Hat),

(I don't know if this has been proposed before but) why don't you create
some kind of Harbour Fund? It could be used to accept donations,
contributions and, why not, for hired services (be it on-line help or
code-writing or support etc.)


---
Pete

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Re: Documentation storm on user's list

Pritpal Bedi
pete_westg wrote
(I don't know if this has been proposed before but) why don't you create
some kind of Harbour Fund? It could be used to accept donations,
contributions and, why not, for hired services (be it on-line help or
code-writing or support etc.)
Ok, I commit to write documentation, how much you will pay ?

Users of Harbour can pledge how much one is willing to pay,
pledge only on this list, do not pay now, and if the total figure
will match my expectations, I will start writing.

You will pay when I will at certain stage.

Accepted ?


     enjoy hbIDEing...
        Pritpal Bedi
http://hbide.vouch.info/
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Re: Documentation storm on user's list

pete_westg
στις 29/05/2010 00:42, O/H Pritpal Bedi έγραψε:


> Ok, I commit to write documentation, how much you will pay ?

Certainly not less than the current market price[*] for similar products.

(and of course, I'd prefer it to be an under-official-leadership
initiative.)

>
> Users of Harbour can pledge how much one is willing to pay,
> pledge only on this list, do not pay now, and if the total figure
> will match my expectations, I will start writing.
> You will pay when I will at certain stage.
>

For sure, your suggested terms are fairly reasonable, however..

 > Accepted ?

..I'd prefer to we follow a "Harbour-Fund" financing model. That is, we
start making donations to a common-treasure and let project leaders
decide and make "hiring" agreements for manual creation, or whatever
would help project's improvement.

But, of course, let's hear other harbour followers opinions.





________________________________________________________________
[*] Okay! plus the beers, at the release-day feasts.
( 12 bottles maximum and no more.. ;) )

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Re: Documentation storm on user's list

Massimo Belgrano
2010/5/29 pete_westg <[hidden email]>
στις 29/05/2010 00:42, O/H Pritpal Bedi έγραψε:
Ok, I commit to write documentation, how much you will pay ?

Certainly not less than the current market price[*] for similar products.
 (and of course, I'd prefer it to be an under-official-leadership initiative.)
I promise pay to fund 500$
 suggest explain a determined number of money
the price is result od number of intrested
I made a sosftware that cost 500.000 $  if i jave 10 possible customer my price will be 50000$ instead of customer are 100.000 price is 5$
imo Harbour documentation not have a similar  products


Users of Harbour can pledge how much one is willing to pay,
pledge only on this list, do not pay now, and if the total figure
will match my expectations, I will start writing.
You will pay when I will at certain stage.


For sure, your suggested terms are fairly reasonable, however..

> Accepted ?
yes
 

..I'd prefer to we follow a "Harbour-Fund" financing model. That is, we start making donations to a common-treasure and let project leaders decide and make "hiring" agreements for manual creation, or whatever would help project's improvement.
But, of course, let's hear other harbour followers opinions.
The difficult is due by different low,our fund is worlwide
Our fund must  intested to people
Pritpal will simply open a paypall account
In italy for example i can't receive payment without invoice 

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Massimo Belgrano



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Re: Documentation storm on user's list

Przemysław Czerpak
In reply to this post by pete_westg
On Sat, 29 May 2010, pete_westg wrote:

Hi,

> ..I'd prefer to we follow a "Harbour-Fund" financing model. That is,
> we start making donations to a common-treasure and let project
> leaders decide and make "hiring" agreements for manual creation, or
> whatever would help project's improvement.
> But, of course, let's hear other harbour followers opinions.

xHarbour.com has excellent documentation and for last four or five years
they have not been able to sell enough copy to receive back money they had
to pay for professional documentation writer. And here we have ready product
not sth what may appear in the future. If ready to use product cannot be
sold in enough number of copies then for sure we have no chance to collect
enough money for sth what does not exist yet.
Instead starting such foundation may be the end of Harbour. It will not
allow to collect enough money to pay professional documentation writer
but it may be the source of never ending discussion when the documentation
will have been finished addressed to me and some other core developers.
I'm not slave of Harbour users and for sure I will not tolerate such
messages for long time.

This is my last massage in this thread. I strongly suggest to invest
resources necessary to create such long messages about "how to create
harbour documentation" in creating some real documentation. It will
be really productive.

best regards,
Przemek
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Re: Documentation storm on user's list

Massimo Belgrano
I tryed send original mail to maling 

Please revise me

2010/5/29 Przemysław Czerpak <[hidden email]>
On Sat, 29 May 2010, pete_westg wrote:

Hi,

> ..I'd prefer to we follow a "Harbour-Fund" financing model. That is,
> we start making donations to a common-treasure and let project
> leaders decide and make "hiring" agreements for manual creation, or
> whatever would help project's improvement.
> But, of course, let's hear other harbour followers opinions.

xHarbour.com has excellent documentation and for last four or five years
they have not been able to sell enough copy to receive back money they had
to pay for professional documentation writer. And here we have ready product
not sth what may appear in the future. If ready to use product cannot be
sold in enough number of copies then for sure we have no chance to collect
enough money for sth what does not exist yet.
Instead starting such foundation may be the end of Harbour. It will not
allow to collect enough money to pay professional documentation writer
but it may be the source of never ending discussion when the documentation
will have been finished addressed to me and some other core developers.
I'm not slave of Harbour users and for sure I will not tolerate such
messages for long time.

This is my last massage in this thread. I strongly suggest to invest
resources necessary to create such long messages about "how to create
harbour documentation" in creating some real documentation. It will
be really productive.

best regards,
Przemek
_

--
Massimo Belgrano



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Re: Documentation storm on user's list

Antonio Maniero
http://tech.blog.aknin.name/2010/05/29/mailing-list-debates-considered-harmful/

Most important thing is the title. Have fun! :-)

[]'s Maniero

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Re: Documentation storm on user's list

Viktor Szakáts
In reply to this post by Przemysław Czerpak
Hi All,

>> ..I'd prefer to we follow a "Harbour-Fund" financing model. That is,
>> we start making donations to a common-treasure and let project
>> leaders decide and make "hiring" agreements for manual creation, or
>> whatever would help project's improvement.
>> But, of course, let's hear other harbour followers opinions.
>
> xHarbour.com has excellent documentation and for last four or five years
> they have not been able to sell enough copy to receive back money they had
> to pay for professional documentation writer. And here we have ready product
> not sth what may appear in the future. If ready to use product cannot be
> sold in enough number of copies then for sure we have no chance to collect
> enough money for sth what does not exist yet.
> Instead starting such foundation may be the end of Harbour. It will not
> allow to collect enough money to pay professional documentation writer
> but it may be the source of never ending discussion when the documentation
> will have been finished addressed to me and some other core developers.
> I'm not slave of Harbour users and for sure I will not tolerate such
> messages for long time.
>
> This is my last massage in this thread. I strongly suggest to invest
> resources necessary to create such long messages about "how to create
> harbour documentation" in creating some real documentation. It will
> be really productive.

Very well summed up.

Small addition: _Asking others_ to create a fund (just like doing
the same with docs) won't help the case either (I also don't have
any notion to deal with any sort of common money, as discussed
a few times in the past).

Pls note that _anyone_ is free to create a fund and deal with the
sponsoration of doc writing, or any other matter whatsoever. Harbour
admins/core developers aren't needed for this.

To make it clear: I'm personally not interested in writing docs
even if paid for, and other core developers has stated this clearly
too in the past.

[ After waiting some days for the original thread on user's
list taking any sort of constructive direction, I had made the
decision to ban the thread starter, on the grounds that he went
into an unstoppable monologue, which is off-topic regarding
Harbour user's list, and really doesn't help to solve any
problems. ]

Viktor

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Re: Documentation storm on user's list

Massimo Belgrano
2010/5/31 Viktor Szakáts <[hidden email]>:
>
> Pls note that _anyone_ is free to create a fund and deal with the
> sponsoration of doc writing, or any other matter whatsoever. Harbour
> admins/core developers aren't needed for this.
In italy if i receive money from internet (to pay doc writing for
example) i must pay tax

> To make it clear: I'm personally not interested in writing docs
> even if paid for, and other core developers has stated this clearly
> too in the past.
Very clear

> [ After waiting some days for the original thread on user's
> list taking any sort of constructive direction, I had made the
> decision to ban the thread starter, on the grounds that he went
> into an unstoppable monologue, which is off-topic regarding
> Harbour user's list, and really doesn't help to solve any
> problems. ]
We must search a way to solve  problems
I have pending same mail where requesting free clipper doc

>
> Viktor



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